Legal Discussion
Discuss anything which is legally driven.  Licenses, copyrights and
trademarks are good topics.  Do not use this discussion as a way to
vent at MUDs which you think may be breaking a license.
Exits: down.
[AFK] Jobo Hairyfeet is standing here.
(Immortal) Mateo, Matt Becker - Copyright/License Law Attorney is here before you.
Kublai Implementor: PhoenixMUD is standing here.
(Immortal) OrionElder, Creator and Owner of the SSWRA is here before you.
(Immortal) Nightraven Owner Saghani/HighJourne is here before you.
(Immortal) Noplex! Head Coder and Owner of Crimson Blade is here before you.
Ayana Owner - Tiamats-Lair/Imp - HOK is standing here.
Solarae the Spell Student is hovering here.
(Immortal) Thoric creator of SMAUG and Realms of Despair is here before you.
Ebon, Avatar of Crimson Oracles is standing here.
Hephos, Head Coder/Owner of Sharune Mud is standing here.
(Immortal) Ntanel StormBlade, President of MudWorld is here before you.

KaVir appears in a swirling mist.

Mateo beams a smile at KaVir.

KaVir bows deeply.

Mateo bows deeply.

KaVir says 'Hi there'

Mateo says 'hey kavir'

Mateo says 'are you one of the original diku creators?'

Noplex seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

KaVir says 'Nope, no chance'

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

Noplex says 'He's not old enough'

You say 'KaVir is Godwars Guru'

Noplex laughs.

KaVir chuckles at Noplex's joke.

Mateo says 'ok im confusing you with someone else'

Kublai says 'katja nyobe, tom amdsen, hans henrik, mihale seifert  sebastian hammer'

Mateo nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'I'm quite an active defender of the Diku license though'

You agree with him.

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Mateo says 'must have been seifert i spoke with a while back'

KaVir says 'He's one of the Diku team'

Mateo nods solemnly.

Ntanel says 'i spoke to Papi too'

Mateo says 'if you do incorp Kublai...try electing Sub S for take benefits'

Ntanel says 'sent a series of questions, but he has yetto fginish answering them'

Mateo smiles happily.

Hephos says 'you should let the diku defend their own licence :)  if they don't bother, whey should anyone'

Mateo says 'musta been a long list'

Hephos smirks.

KaVir says 'Because if people violate licenses, we all lose out'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Jobo is no longer afk.
Jobo nods in agreement to KaVir.

You agree with him.

Hephos says 'in what way?'

OrionElder says 'Very much so. It makes people NOT want to contribute.'

Ntanel says '20 or so, i sent a few biting ones, however i told him he could skip the legal stuff'

Mateo says 'so whats your license Orion?'

KaVir says 'Also, its rather hypocritical for me to defend mine and not others'

Hephos nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'Because people stop releasing stuff back into the mudding community'

Mateo says 'like Napster....what you all think of the Napster situation?'

OrionElder says 'My license made a few stipulations about my codebase, which I allowed some friends to use.'

Hephos says 'i love napster'

KaVir says 'Eg Medievia was one of the main reasons why DikuII was never publically released'

Mateo nods in agreement to OrionElder.

OrionElder says 'They broke a good number of those stipulations, and are now claiming that though I did create the codebase, that they do NOT have to follow the license.'
Mateo says 'you granted the license?'

You say 'Napster to me deserved it.  It was blatant'

Noplex says 'Medievia was a bunch of bull.'


Mateo nods in agreement with you.

OrionElder says 'I told them they could use the code, as long as the followed the license.'

Mateo nods solemnly.


Kristi chats '*chirp*'

OrionElder says 'When they broke my license, I notified the owner to fix the problem or remove it.'

Mateo says 'did you register your copyright on the Code?'

OrionElder says 'They have refused to do EITHER.'

OrionElder shakes his head.

Feylind chats '*whistle whistle cheep cheep cheep*'


Kristi chats 'hehe'


OrionElder says 'I don't really know HOW, and if I did, it'd cost money I don't really have. :\'

Mateo nods solemnly.

KaVir says '$30'

Noplex nods solemnly.


Mateo says 'well its pretty easy and yah 30 bucks'

Nightraven says 'that is alot of the problem'

Ntanel says 'oh ya, i posted some stuff, mudworld.inetsolve.com/larticles/legal'
OrionElder says 'Heh, I'm poor though. No job.'


Ntanel says 'oops'

Nightraven says 'it costs to damn much'


Mateo smiles happily.

Ntanel says 'http://mudworld.inetsolve.com/articles/legal/'

KaVir says 'Although as far as I can tell, there's no way to register copyrights in the UK'

KaVir says 'I could register it in the US of course'


Mateo says 'is the code being used online?'

Ebon says 'how far does an artistic license go Mateo?'

You say 'international copywrites KaVir?'


OrionElder says 'But, the MUD is based out of California, on oro.net.'

Mateo says 'you can use the DMCA to contact their ISP and have them shut down.....'

OrionElder nods in agreement to Mateo.


OrionElder says 'They are using it, for a MUD.'

KaVir nods in agreement with you.

OrionElder says 'And the MUD is allowing players, etc.'

Mateo says 'well...send a proper DMCA notice to their ISP'

KaVir says 'Yes, but copyright law isn't exactly the same in different coun tries'
OrionElder says 'The MUD has been up for a good number of years.'

OrionElder says 'DMCA notice?'

Mateo agrees with KaVir.

Noplex says 'Kavir didn't you say 7th Circle admitted to be using Orion's stuff?'

Mateo says 'do some research online about the DMCA'

OrionElder nods in agreement to Noplex.

OrionElder says 'They did.'

KaVir says 'They have, yes'

Mateo says 'Digital Millenium Copyright Act'

Noplex says 'And what is the problem? Either they follow the license, or get shut down.'

KaVir says 'What does that state about registration though?'

OrionElder says 'Ah, how would I go about that? Is there a website with information on it?'

You say 'I know diff in diff countries, but there is still world court precedents of ownership'

Hephos leaves down.

Mateo says 'allows one who feels their copyright is being infringed to contact the ISP and have the site shut down'

OrionElder nods in agreement to Mateo.

KaVir says 'In the US you have to register within 3 months of publication to be able to sue I believe...but in the UK I don't think there is any formal registration'

OrionElder says 'The problem is that the person running the code is an employee of said site.'

Mateo says 'the DMCA also allows the ISP to avoid contibutory copyright infringement if they follow it'

Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.

Fizban arrives from below.

Thoric chats 'I have to leave in a minute or two... nice seeing you all again :)'

OrionElder says 'Brook works for oro.net'

Crono arrives from below.

Manok chats 'buh bye'

OrionElder chats '*nod Thoric* :)'

Belgarath chats 'later thorix'

Crono leaves down.

OrionElder chats 'Later.'

Belgarath chats 'thoric'

Kristi chats 'nice seeing you again thoric:) take care *hugs*'

Mateo says 'you can register anytime inthe u...but you cant sue until its registered'

Alucard chats 'c'ya'

KaVir chats 'Take care Thoric, see you at the RoD party :)'


Freyja chats 'by thoric and thanks'


Kooky chats 'Bye'

OrionElder says 'Hmmm...'

Crono chats 'bye thoric'

Mateo says 'also you cant get some of the good damages attorneys fees and costs without registration'

Fizban leaves down.

OrionElder says 'Mateo, do you have any sites that deal with accurate information about the DMCA?'

Thoric leaves in a swirling mist.
Thoric appears in a swirling mist.


Thoric bows before KaVir.

Thoric bows before Ntanel.


Huh?

KaVir bows before Thoric.


OrionElder bows before Thoric.


Mateo says 'well every ISP posts the heart of the DMCA requirements for removing infringing material'

Thoric bows before you.

Solarae curtseys gracefully to Thoric.

Jobo waves goodbye to Thoric.

Thoric bows before OrionElder.

Nightraven bows before Thoric.



Mateo says 'earthlinks is pretty straight forward...look in the legal notice section'

Noplex bows before Thoric.


OrionElder nods in agreement to Mateo.

Mateo says 'find their ISP and look for its legal notices'

Kristi hugs Thoric.

Mateo says 'they will provide instructions and a contact '

OrionElder nods in agreement to Mateo.

Belgarath chats 'later all i keep hitting lag pockets, might be back later'

OrionElder says 'You've been very helpful, thank you very much. :)'

Solarae says 'when is a good time to register the copyright, in beta phase?'

Mateo says 'if you still cant find it...matt@beckerlawfirm.com'

Kyre chats 'bye belgarath!'

Siriah chats 'ok pplz, 4 am my world, and Im nt staying focal - ws nice meeting you all :)'

OrionElder shakes Mateo's hand.

OrionElder chuckles politely.

Manok chats 'Buh bye Sirie'

Kyre chats 'night siriah'

Kooky chats 'Cya Bel'

Zaroth chats 'night Siriah'

OrionElder says 'Ok, I'll get out of everyone's way now. :)'

Angel chats 'Bye Sirah :)'

OrionElder smiles happily.

Mateo says 'you can register in beta phase and then update it later'

Kooky chats 'Cya Sirah'

Thoric looks at KaVir.

Alucard chats 'cya'

Thoric stops using a Realms of Despair 7th Anniversary Reunion t-shirt.

Thoric gives a Realms of Despair 7th Anniversary Reunion t-shirt to KaVir.

Feylind arrives from below.
Mearn arrives from below.

KaVir grins evilly.

Freyja chats 'maybe we ought to exchange ICQ's again and make it super spammy'

KaVir says 'Thanks :)'

Thoric grins evilly.

KaVir fits a Realms of Despair 7th Anniversary Reunion t-shirt on his body.

Thoric waves happily.

Noplex snickers softly.

Thoric bows deeply.

KaVir waves happily.

Thoric says 'take care :)'

You wave goodbye to Thoric.

Thorin appears in a swirling mist.

Thorin waves goodbye to Ntanel.

Thoric has left the game.

Thorin leaves in a swirling mist.

Ebon says 'the DMCA Site is http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.R.2281.ENR:'

Mateo says 'also make sure you dont put too much code in the registration of a software program...dont want your trade secrets getting out'

Noplex throws a ACME(tm) black void against the wall and walks through it.

Mateo thanks Ebon heartily.

Kristi chats 'sweet dreams:)'

Kristi chats 'mischan:P'

Ebon bows deeply.

Apia chats 'heh'

OrionElder says 'I have one more question, Mateo, when you have a moment.'

Ntanel leaves in a swirling mist.

Kublai has lost his link.
Kublai has reconnected, kicking off old link.

Mateo nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'Don't want to jump in front of anyone. :)'

OrionElder smiles happily.

Mateo says 'if i missed someones question...just ask again...im on telnet'

Jobo comforts Mateo.

Feylind leaves down.
Mearn leaves down.

You say 'whe the comments seem to have died, I have a simpler legal question'

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

Nightraven says 'hehe i was waiting till others where done'

OrionElder snickers softly.
Mateo nods in agreement with you.

Ayana disappears into the void.

Mateo says 'feel free to ask...ill try and multitask'

Ayana has returned from the void.

Ebon says 'how far does an artistic license go Mateo?'

Fizban chats 'why does i dont get teleported from here it say that it will teleport me in 5 sec but nothing happens'

Mateo says 'what do you mean by artistic license'

OrionElder says 'Would me allowing them usage, but not publically releasing the code, be considered publication (KaVir pointed out that after three months of publication without action nothing can really be done, I believe).'

OrionElder says 'I may have botched the meaning of what KaVir said.'

Mateo says 'no he was refering to the requirement to sue in federal court...'

Nightraven nods solemnly.

KaVir nods in agreement to Mateo.


Mateo says 'you need an actual registration to sue or file a lawsuit'

Nightraven says '3 months in the US'

You say 'at what point does reference or inferrence to copywrite books infringe on what builders write in there zones.  I know TSR has tried to copywrite things like orcs and stuff which is silly, but where is the line?'

Mateo says 'your copyright is still valid tho'

KaVir says 'The 3 months just affects damages that can be claimed'

Jobo rolls on the floor laughing hysterically.

Ebon says 'i mean i live in Washigton ...and if i draw a painting ...it is covered under an artistic license ....does that apply to programming also?'




OrionElder says 'Ah, so if I got it registered, even though it has been over three months, I could still sue them for the violation?'


Mateo says 'thats a complicated question iluvatar'

Hephos arrives from below.


You blink at him in confusion.

You chuckle politely.


You patiently twiddle your thumbs.

Mateo says 'you need to compare the copyrighted work to the creation'


Mateo says 'give me a specific example'

Hephos leaves down.

Kublai says 'um'





Mateo says 'Ebon- if you draw a painting or paint a painting..:P, its automatically protected by copyright law'

Malkav chats 'Mobile rights! Yes!'

Kublai says 'those eddings books'

Ebon says 'then why is programming not?'

KaVir says 'It is'

Mateo says 'just the name or the character'

OrionElder says 'It is Ebon.'

OrionElder says 'But it has to be registered, to really do anything.'

Mateo says 'unless its a work for hire Ebon...then the employer owns it'

You say 'name, character profile, it shouldn't matter which'

Kublai says 'those re not public domain yet'

Mateo says 'a name isnt enough'

Ebon says 'ok ...thanks'

Mateo says 'you cant copyright a name'

You say 'only if Chris Tolkein reregistered the copywrite Kublai'

Mateo says 'however...characters are protected by copyright'

KaVir says 'But work-for-hire requires a sigbnature (for contract) or an employement contract, also signed, right?'

Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.

KaVir says 'So muds can't claim work-for-hire without a signature'

Kublai says 'unless you try and claim its a parody...'

Mateo says 'there are legal tests to do determine if it was a work for hire...'

Mateo says 'you dont always need a signature'

Jobo says 'meaning the builders own the areas or ?'

Mateo says 'but i suggest you always get a contract signed by the employee'

Mateo nods in agreement to Jobo.

KaVir nods in agreement to Jobo.

Koryon chats 'I just almost swallod a button whole... *oops*'

Mateo says 'to some extent'

You say 'that's why I asked Kublai, I am looking for the line between Parody and Plagiarism'

Kristi chats 'eep'

KaVir says 'But building for a mud could suggest an implied license?'

Mateo says 'now paraody...thats a different story'

Mateo says 'parody is an exception to infrigement in the US'

Kooky chats 'Was it a RED button?'

OrionElder says 'So, if I got my code registered, even though it has been over three months, I could still sue them for the violation, or would I be laughed out of court?'

You say 'aha!'

Mateo nods in agreement to OrionElder.

Koryon chats 'black'

Dyne chats 'whas it blue?'

Jobo says 'not that I mind that the builders own the areas, but it would be sad, should the builder suddenly decide I could no longer use the areas (could I be forced to remove the areas should that happen??)'

Mateo says 'just have to wait for the registration to sue'

Koryon chats 'It almost came out red though, if that counts'

Kristi chats 'Hey dyne:)'

KaVir says 'But you'd be lucky to get back the court costs'

Kublai says 'hmm not to jump topics too harshly and i don't mean to imply we should be lawless anarchists'

Akasha chats '*laugh*'

Dyne chats 'hi peoples :)'

Kristi chats 'alright where's the bar:P'

Alucard chats 'as long as it isnt cyan!'

Kublai says 'but shouldn't how likely you are to get sued be taken into any account ?'

Koryon chats '*rofl*'

Ntanel chats 'from 9011, go down and west till end and then nort to the bar'

Mateo says 'depends upon the circumstances Jobo'

Jobo nods solemnly.

Kooky chats 'Was it a blinking button?'

Hephos chats 'who made smaug have so damn bright colors!? :)'

Jobo says 'oh dear.. the suns rising'

Mateo says 'also with a registration...you can get statutory damages in Court'

Dyne chats 'bright?!?!?!'

Alucard chats 'lol i died'

Kristi chats 'who's at the bar i should say:P'

You say 'I don't think there is a case tried yet Kublai using MUD as a medium, I may be wrong'

KaVir says 'Jobo, if they create an area for you, I think you could claim an implied license to use their area'

Crono chats 'lol'

Mateo says 'between 750-30,000 per work infringed--up to 150k if willful'

Jobo nods solemnly.

Kristi chats 'hehe'

Mateo says 'yah ive never heard of a lawsuit over a mud'

Koryon chats 'until I choke and die, at least'

Solarae says 'it will come'

Mateo says 'some areas are brilliant'

Akasha chats 'hehe I tried to give him the heimlich or however that is spelled but it didn't work'

Mateo chats 'drink it down...it will come out '

OrionElder says 'Ok, and one final question: The license files written in a MUD codebase aren't usually written by someone with a law degree... I wrote my license on my own. My stipulations were quite clear (IE "You must not block access to your Wizard mud from the W'

OrionElder says 'Wizard development site (dhs.org).") How legally binding are these types of licenses?'

Mateo says 'well any contract can be biding...there just might be some more loopholes....'

Jobo says 'Can you actually demand that... saying that they cannot block certain ISP's ?'

Mateo says 'you dont always need a lawyer to write it...but its helpful to plug up the loopholes'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

OrionElder nods in agreement to Jobo.

Akasha chats 'why were you trying to eat buttons?'

Jobo says 'wicked'

Solarae nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'I was allowing usage of my work. I can grant the rights I wish for them to have.'

Solarae says 'I know this is a very genral questions'

Koryon chats 'well, do I have to answer that question... ?  :)'

Angel chats 'Anyone need their title or rank set?'

Feylind chats 'hey, i chew on my buttons all the time, and no, i've never eaten one yet :)'

Kristi chats 'ya if you do send either me or angel a tell:P'

Akasha chats 'giggle'

Kristi chats 'hehe'

Solarae says 'but how much would various license run?'

Solarae says 'ie license to use a codebase'

[INFO] Welcome Samson of Arthmoor, SMAUG Snippets and Alsherok

Mateo says 'with areas on muds...alot being used it public domain or may be protected independently so the builder might have a hard time claiming rights or enforcing anything'

Hephos chats '"can i be an impl?" <- love those ones'

Samson chats 'Greetings people :)'

Kristi chats 'Samson!'

You chuckle politely.

Mateo chats 'goodevening'

Nightraven says 'how could you word a contract for builders so a zone built protects the mud and the builder IE I couldnt give the zone to another mud without their permission and they couldnt build it elsewhere without mine?'

KaVir says 'I don't think there are any muds in the public domain'

Nightraven says 'how could you word a contract for builders so a zone built protects the mud and the builder IE I couldnt give the zone to another mud without their permission and they couldnt build it elsewhere without mine?lick samson'

Nightraven says 'oops'

Nightraven says 'damn client'

Kublai smirks.

Kublai says 'telnet forever'

OrionElder snickers softly.

Samson chats 'So how's everyone tonite?'

Kublai rarely hits the ! by accident.

Kristi chats 'good U?'


Angel chats 'cold!'


Ntanel chats 'naked, you?'

Kristi chats 'ya that to:P'
KaVir says 'Nightraven, I believe transfer of exclusive rights requires a signature'

Kublai chats 'tired'

Mateo says 'well...the best way to word a contract is with clear unambiguous language...'

Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.

Samson chats 'Good. Just got back from the movie. Pearl Harbor rocks :)'

Angel chats 'freezing and sleepy'

KaVir says 'If you want to restrict their rights to their own work...that's a transfer of rights'

Kristi chats 'ntanel wanna borrow my dress?'

Ntanel chats 'no thanks'

Mateo says 'that is true...an assignment must be in writting'

Nightraven nods solemnly.

Kristi chats 'awww:P'

Angel chats 'I heard it sucked from some ppl, but then I've heard a few say it was good'

Kristi chats 'You'd look cute in black  vinyl:P'

Mateo says 'signed i mean'

You chat 'tight black vinyl?'

Kublai thanks Mateo heartily.

KaVir says 'What if they're creating an area which is a derivative work based upon yours? ;)'

Kublai smiles happily.

Kublai leaves down.

Kristi chats 'hehe'

Jobo says 'In denmark verbal contracts are just as binding as written, though alot harder to prove.. any rules in the US on verbal contracts ='

OrionElder nods in agreement to KaVir.

Nightraven says 'could it be an assignment that is logged and agreed upon via logs'

Kristi chats 'I did'nt say tight:P'

Angel chats 'you can have my red vinyl if you like :P'

KaVir says 'You allow them to create the derivative work under the condition of no transfer'

Mateo says 'well they own a copyright to what they created'

Samson chats 'Whoever said it sucks wasn't watching the same movie I saw'

Malkav chats 'Lets not start this discussion people. It has a bad (Good) affect on me. ;)'

Mateo says 'hmmm...there is some new legislation on digital signatures'

Kristi chats 'hehe'

Zaroth appears in a swirling mist.

Ebon says 'yes Mateo ...they are legally binding'

OrionElder says 'for example:'

Zaroth gives you a bottle of Budweiser Beer.

Malkav chats 'Hehe.'

Apia chats 'back'

Zaroth leaves in a swirling mist.

OrionElder agrees to the license of Crimson Oracles.

Kristi chats 'wb'

OrionElder says 'Would that be legally binding?'

Mateo says 'im not sure the status but i know digital signatures are now binding...jjust not sure what is required...as in clicking a box etc...'

Apia appears in a swirling mist.

Solarae nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'I mean, with what I just typed, it should be obvious of their intent.'

Jobo says 'hmmm, wouldn't that require some sort of official RSA key ?'

KaVir says 'The digital signature is valid in ALL situations then?'

Mateo says 'to be honest orion...im not sure...to be safe just get a digitized signature'


Mateo says 'the question is...what constitutes a digital signature'

OrionElder says 'Digitized Signature? As in scanned in actual handwriting?'

Mateo nods in agreement to OrionElder.

You say 'I think it is having a preset digital signature in your personal system that uniquely marks the document.  Some systems it is click a box to copy it'

Mateo says 'or'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Nightraven says 'hehe most people dont even know what a digitized signature is'

Jobo says 'let's ask google'


Mateo nods solemnly.

Ebon says 'i believe it requires an tracabpe IP address, a checkbox or neme entry line, a password and some additional peice of info like mother's maiden name'

OrionElder laughs.

Mateo nods in agreement to Ebon.

Mateo says 'that sounds right'

Mateo says 'some way to trace it and prove the origination'

OrionElder says 'Well, the thing about that, is when you look at these contracts, how binding are these contracts on minors?'

Mateo says 'not at all'

You are filled with an odd sense of peace and tranquility.


Nightraven says 'exactly'


Kristi chats 'If you need your title set send me or angel a tell:P'

Mateo says 'minors cant be bound by contract...but you can still stop infringements'

Ebon says 'correct ...that's why AOL is so hard ...because your IP changes each time you log on'

Jobo says 'Digital Signatures seems like something you buy, and then some company makes sure everythings official'

Nightraven says 'most builder/coders/players are under the age of 18'

OrionElder says 'Then how can (and this is an example) porn sites put up a digital agreement saying that you state you're not a minor... if they're a minor, it wouldn't be binding to them, would it?\'

Jobo says 'http://www.digsigtrust.com/'


You say 'does minor mean the same to the world court?'

Mateo nods in agreement to Nightraven.

You say 'as it does to us?'

Mateo says 'a real problem'

Mateo says 'minor is 18 inthe US'

Mateo says 'err under 18'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Mateo says 'the world court...not sure'

Nightraven nods solemnly.


Ebon says 'the parent of the minor is liable if the minor breaches an agreement online Orion'

Mateo says 'in other countries its different for minor age and contracts'

OrionElder says 'And how can a minor bind an adult to a contract, but not vice-versa?'

You say 'our mud and I'm sure others are global, so world issues matter'

Mateo says 'well...a minor doesnt always bind the adult'

KaVir says 'I '

KaVir says 'Nevermind :)'

You chuckle politely.


Nightraven snickers with KaVir about their shared secret.


Mateo says 'the parent is just responsible for damages a minor creates...(in some states...the law is diff in each US state on that one)'


Nightraven nods solemnly.
OrionElder says 'Well, for example, my MUD is adult-oriented. There is some language that can be seen as offensive, as well as some conversations not suitable for minors...'

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

OrionElder says 'How would I protect myself?'

Mateo says 'sounds interesting'

Mateo says 'well how bad is it'

Ebon snickers with OrionElder about their shared secret.

You say 'actually, I think all muds get seriously bad at times'

Mateo says 'swear words or like...net sex'

KaVir says 'Can't you just have the "Agree that you're 18+ to enter" thing that adult sites use?'

You say 'which is why I banned AOL for general access'

Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.

OrionElder says 'Well, the words fuck as well as bitch has occurred, as well as conversations relating to sex, etc (however I am unaware of cyber-sex occurring).'

Mateo says 'there are certain precautions that online sexual content sites use...'

Hephos arrives from below.

Mateo says 'well dont worry too much orion'

Nightraven says 'i know they are trying to get it passed in Minesota that parents are responsible for there minor childerns actions'

Mateo says 'thats more pg-13'

Mateo says 'Jesse the Body'

Ebon nods in agreement to OrionElder.


Mateo says 'just have a policy against harassment'

Nightraven says 'hehe Jesse rocks to this point'

Mateo says 'i dont think a swear word is obscene '

Ebon says 'to some degree they always have been Nightraven'

OrionElder says 'And we try to keep it to a minimum (I do punish it whenever someone complains that it was offensive), however I read on one site that you could be responsible for allowing minors access to such materials, and could be prosecuted by federal law.'

Hephos leaves down.

Mateo says 'in some states parents are responsible '

Nightraven says 'my one mud has a 0 tolerance policy on harrassment'

Jobo says 'could also keep a special flame channel open for swearing, and then allow players to turn it off'

You say 'we have a 5K fine for abusers -- it seems to limit it'

Jobo nods in agreement with you.


Ebon says 'should be the opposite Jobo'

Mateo says 'good idea'

You say 'what they do on private channels ie, cypersex is up to them'

Mateo says 'in tells'

Nightraven says 'i have a ban on ppl tat do it twice'

You say 'exactly'

Mateo says 'well dont be snooping then'

Mateo winks suggestively at you.

Nightraven throws back his head and cackles with insane glee!

You agree with him.

Jobo says 'Oh yeah.. snooping'

OrionElder says 'I mean, is there any truth to that, or was it just something someone put up to scare peeople?'

You say 'no no, the point is sometimes they get caught, and when you KNOW they are 13 or 15, some of my immortals freak'

Mateo says 'well there is truth to that'

Jobo says 'shouldn't we have some sort of warning against that in the greeting/login, since it might be against privacy '

Jobo says 'snooping that is'

Mateo thinks, 'Hmmmm.'

Mateo says 'i dont think there is an expectation of privacy online'

Jobo nods at himself.  he must be getting senile.

OrionElder says 'Well, I don't think privacy is an issue, as MUDs are privately owned systems.'

Mateo says 'i mean a legal expectation'


You say 'yes there is!!  They have little to no clue as to scope of abilities'


OrionElder says 'People know good and well that you can see what they say, so if they don't want you to see it, they shouldn't say it.'


Mateo says 'orion to be prosecuted you would have to be distributing obscene material..not exposing them to a swear word'


Kyre appears in a swirling mist.

Kyre sits down.

You hug her.

Mateo says 'if you are worried...post a note in the login sequence about it'

Kyre hugs you.

OrionElder says 'Well, for example: If I was to say something like "I'm going to fu... err tuck Zeph in." would I be in any form of danger, legally?'

Nightraven says 'if you mud isnt graphical you should be safe'



Angel chats 'Hello Shorty'


OrionElder nods solemnly.

Kristi chats 'hi Shorty'

Mateo says 'i think so...but text can get pretty bad sometimes'

Solarae says 'does the banned person have a leg to stand on?'

OrionElder says 'That's a good practice.'

Shorty chats 'hiya'

Apia says 'doesnt seem so simple eh Iluvatar?'

Apia hugs you.

OrionElder laughs.

Mateo says 'im not sure i understand Solaraw'

Angel chats 'if you need your title set send me or Kristi a tell'

Ntanel chats 'shorty, this the shorty who's mud i am on now?'





Ayana has lost her link.
Ayana has reconnected, kicking off old link.

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Shorty chats 'that would be me'

Apia says 'but...if you know...because of snoop or whatever'

Shorty has just achieved Avatarhood!

You say 'we can set rules and TRY enforce, but sheesh, that's a nightmare'

Apia says 'then what is your obligation'

[INFO] Welcome Shorty from 4 Diemnsions

OrionElder nods in agreement with you.

Mateo says 'if you allow a place where minors are exposed to sickos looking for kids etc...you may have problems...a swear word once in awhile is ok'

[INFO] yes, i can not spell

Samson chats 'Greetings Shorty'

OrionElder says 'There is too much that can simply get by you.'

[INFO] we can tell
Shorty chats ':)'

Nightraven agrees with you.

Kyre says 'dare i ask what we're discussing?:p'


Jobo says 'everyone becomes avatars... makes me want to become one and start pk'ing... sniff'


Alucard chats 'alo Shorty'


Apia says 'minor mudsex'

Kyre says 'yummy'

Mateo says 'if you know because of snoop ...i would ban the pedaphile'

Akasha appears in a swirling mist.

KaVir says 'Wouldn't it be safer legally to claim ignorance and not try to enforce any control, rather like IRC?'

[INFO] He'll learn to type one day:P

[INFO] we hope

OrionElder chats 'Heh. :)'

Apia says 'i think ethically...if you have the knowledge you are obligated to take action'

Jobo says 'or just add a HELP DISCLAIMER'

KaVir says 'I agree Apia...'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Mateo says 'id keep an eye on it...multiple offenses or if the minor ran off with the person and they tracked the source to your mud...yikes!'

You say 'MY policy is we are not Mom and Pop and maturity restricted.  But, I tell my immortals if you see something that offends you, deal with it to your satisfaction keeping in mind privacy.'

KaVir says 'But if you start enforcing, then you'd become responsible for stuff which WAS illegal'

Kooky chats 'Whoo's dis info dOOd talkin to me?'

OrionElder says 'That could lead to a BIG problem for you...'


Angel chats 'no one O:)'


Kyre says 'yeah alig came to me about something because he wasnt sure if he was responsible about a situation'

OrionElder says 'Possibly contributing to the dilenquency of a minor, among other things...'

KaVir says 'If you're not monitoring the system, I'd think it would be safer'

Apia says 'where's teh lawyer'


Legal Discussion
Discuss anything which is legally driven.  Licenses, copyrights and
trademarks are good topics.  Do not use this discussion as a way to
vent at MUDs which you think may be breaking a license.
Exits: down.
Jobo Hairyfeet is standing here.
(Immortal) Mateo matt@beckerlawfirm.com is here before you.
(Immortal) OrionElder, Creator and Owner of the SSWRA is here before you.
(Immortal) Nightraven Owner Saghani/HighJourne is here before you.
Solarae the Spell Student is hovering here.
Ebon, Avatar of Crimson Oracles is standing here.
Ayana Owner - Tiamats-Lair/Imp - HOK is standing here.
(Immortal) KaVir DarkBlade, beer drinker and general slacker is here before you.
Apia Xanax, Admin at Phoenixmud is standing here.
Kyre,RP Expert: PhoenixMUD sits upright here.
Akasha, Owner of Divine Anathema is standing here.



Mateo says 'depends on how bad it gets'

OrionElder says 'Apia - Mateo is Mr. Becker.'

KaVir points at Mateo accusingly.

Mateo winks at Apia.

Freyja chats '::sighs:: some days...windows just SUX'

KaVir looks at Apia.

OrionElder chats 'Yah. Very much so. :)'

KaVir looks at himself.

Samson chats 'Some days? :P'

Jobo says 'only some :)'

Freyja chats 'okay okay...all days'

Kyre says 'afk a sec'

Jobo looks at himself.

Kyre is now afk.

Freyja chats 'just more some days than others'

Kristi chats 'heh'

Alucard chats 'I think I better get some sleep, have fun all =)'

Mateo says 'how can i help Apia'

Kooky chats 'Cya'

Crono chats 'bye swordo'

Angel chats 'night Alucard :)'

Kristi chats 'Night alucard:)'
OrionElder chats 'Yeah. It's allowed a day off from being the crappiest every ninety-three days and seven minutes. ;)'

Kublai chats 'ciao ciao'

Solarae says 'at least one of my children will be playing my mud, which is why I want to go that route'

Kyre is no longer afk.

Kyre says 'back'

OrionElder nods in agreement to Solarae.

You say 'child abuse potential, spouting suicide threats, blatant sexuality either open channels or perhaps accidentally stumbled upon, I react to'


OrionElder says 'It's the safest, really.'

Apia says 'if we monitor in good faith to try to keep the mud safe...does that make us legally liable?'

Solarae nods solemnly.

Apia says 'is the legal situaion better if we do not monitor at all?'

Solarae says 'that is a good question'

You say 'inference or innuendo is out of my control'
Mateo says 'not really'

Solarae says 'I can't stop people from lying about their age'

KaVir says 'I believe that's why TMC stopped moderating the forums'

Mateo says 'you might be accused of neglicgence if you do not monitor at all'

You say 'we are the medium for the alleged abuse Apia, we are culpable if tolerate knowingly'
OrionElder says 'I mean, I can't know what everyone does, all the time... and if my system ever got like RoD, I'd have no chance in hell.'

Solarae says 'but if I do catch someone I want to ban them'

Kyre says 'the admitted 15 and 16 year olds are usually in the 'experimental' stage and are often quite open about sex'


Mateo says 'the best way to do it is to have policies set up'

You agree with him.

OrionElder laughs.

You say 'and disclaimers'

You blink in utter disbelief.

Solarae nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'A phone company is not responsible for the phone-calls made by it's customers though, surely'

OrionElder says 'Mateo, did you expect the volume of questions you've gotten so far? :)'

Mateo says 'and react when you get complaints'

Mateo shakes his head in OrionElder's direction.

Kooky chats 'They left me all alone in da bar with the waitress.'


Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.


Kristi chats 'awww'

KaVir says 'They are?'

Ntanel chats 'it is your chance, take her!'

Mateo says 'but a mud is a bit different'

Mateo says 'no phn companies arent'

KaVir says 'Okay...'

Kristi chats 'hehehe'

KaVir says 'But what makes the mud different?'

Mateo says 'but there is an expectation of privacy on most home phones'

Kristi chats 'Kooky you can come over here:P'

Kyre hates that chat and say are the same color:p.

Kooky chats 'Heheh, I too drunk...'

Jobo says 'If you want to stay safe legally, then a disclaimer that sexual material and swearing could happen might do the trick... but if you want the mud to stay clean, I think hard enforcements of the rules (of the fine/ban kind mentioned earlier) might work '

Kristi chats 'hehe'

KaVir says 'Hmmm okay I follow'

Mateo says 'the phone company is prohibited from tapping calls without a warrant'

OrionElder says 'Well, I believe that the phone companies aren't because it is illegal for them to "tap" your phone without your knowledge, however is that also true about MUDs, on which they are privately owned?'

Mateo says 'and policies set up Jobo'

Jobo nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'For the same reason it's acceptable to snoop on a mud, so it's considered the responsibility of the mud owner to monitor for illegal activity?'

Mateo nods in agreement to OrionElder.

Mateo says 'not monitor'

Mateo says 'but react to complaints'

KaVir nods solemnly.

You say 'hmm, equating snooping with tapping, now that is a bold concept'

OrionElder says 'So we are not allowed to snoop them without their knowledge?'

Mateo says 'if you have knowlege - take action'

Ebon says 'the phone companies are also regulated by a Federal Agency ...and the MUDs are noy'

Mateo says 'no snooping is ok'

KaVir nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'That was my question. I will take action fi I know. :)'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Mateo nods in agreement to OrionElder.

Nightraven says 'i only look into the logs when there is a complaint'

OrionElder says 'Ok. That's what I was curious of. :)'

Jobo says 'If I where to put a "log" flag on a player, thus logging all his commands, wouldn't that be some sort of "tapping"'

Mateo says 'no '

Mateo says 'not illegal tapping'

You say 'sorta make it tough to snoop eh Orion?'

Mateo says 'only certain things are protected with privacy rights'

Mateo says 'thats why a public or work telephone can be tapped'

KaVir nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'Okay that makes sense'

Jobo says 'wicked'

KaVir says 'And presumably that's why a company can monitor emails'

Mateo nods in agreement to KaVir.

Jobo says 'the work phones can be tapped without the poor employees knows about it..'

Mateo says 'exactly Kavir'

OrionElder says 'Well, from what I understand, it's privately owned by you, and since you're obligated to at least attempt to provide a safe atmosphere, the abilities you use, as long as they don't interfere with the users personal computer, are acceptable.'

Apia says 'afk a bit'

You say 'ahh, so we are public or not public -- copywrite reflection? or an ownership thing?'

Ntanel arrives from below.

KaVir says 'copyRIGHT :P'

Kyre says 'Snoop is probably more often than not used for entertainment purposes, not to catch people in wrongful acts.'

Kublai arrives from below.

KaVir says 'The "right" to make copies'

You nod in agreement to him.

Mateo snickers softly.

Jobo giggles.

Jobo says 'so clever'

KaVir says 'Sorry, pet peeve'

Kyre cuddles Kublai.

Kublai blushes.

Mateo says 'where you from Kavir'

Jobo says 'UK'

OrionElder snickers softly.

KaVir nods in agreement to Jobo.

Mateo says 'seems to know US laws well'

KaVir chuckles politely.


Solarae grins evilly.

Jobo says 'well, almost 5 am for me, I need a few hours of sleep, so have fun'

KaVir says 'I've read a few sites for the sake of online debates'

OrionElder says 'Heh, well, considering that most of the MUDs I've seen are based out of the US, I can understand why.'

KaVir says 'Take care Jobo ;)'

Mateo nods solemnly.

Jobo has left the game.

Kublai waves happily.

Mateo waves happily.

OrionElder waves happily.

You say 'and prolifically responds with wisdom to those debates'

You poke him in the ribs.

KaVir says 'I'm glad about the snooping though, as I use it as part of the game - allowing players to "mind-read", etc'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'That's a good idea, KaVir. ;)'

Solarae nods solemnly.


Mateo says 'US laws are complicated because of state laws and then federal laws...we end up with a lot of differnet laws '

OrionElder says 'Mind-reading. ;)'

Kyre says 'lol I dont want other players to know some of the things I have to say:p'

Solarae smirks.

KaVir says 'So learn mindshield'

Nightraven leaves in a swirling mist.

Kublai says 'I've got to take my leave, and look into the all important dinner'

Angel chats 'Hello Numark :)'
OrionElder laughs.

You hug him.

Kublai waves happily.

Kublai bows deeply.

Kublai tips his cap to everyone in the room.

You wave.

Nall chats 'hi numark :)'

Numark chats 'heyas :)'

Kublai has left the game.

OrionElder says 'Well, what about players rights:'

OrionElder says 'For example, I plan to make a movie based on my game.'

KaVir says 'The right to quit? :)  That's about it I think'

Angel chats 'if you need your title set send a tell to either Kristi or I'

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

Kyre waves her hand in front of Apia's face.

OrionElder says 'Would I need their permission to use parts of their characters, IE name, etc. in my movie?'

Numark chats 'k thanks'

Mateo says 'names are ok'

KaVir says 'Unless trademarked :)'

You say 'as he said, parody is okay'

Mateo says 'you cant protect a name with copyright...only trademark'

Solarae nods solemnly.

You say 'rut roh'

KaVir says 'But that's about $900 per name isn't it?'

Mateo says 'hey kavir beat me to it'

OrionElder says 'Or what if I based a character in the movie on a player's personality, etc.'

You say 'trademarked?'

KaVir says 'Sorry :)'

Mateo says 'well'

Solarae says 'arent the Beatrice Potter names now trademarked?'

Mateo says '325 per class'

Mateo says 'plus attorneys fees...so its about 900'

KaVir nods solemnly.

You say 'If I use Frodo is that trademarked for example?'

Mateo says 'im sure somewhere for something '

KaVir says 'For the character, but you could probably have "Frodo beer"'

You say 'even in parody?'

KaVir says 'parady is for copyright'

Mateo says 'trademark is not the same as copyright...you can have trademarks for different companies for the same name'

Koryon appears in a swirling mist.

KaVir pats Koryon on his back.

OrionElder says 'I don't think Frodo alone wouldn be, but Frodo Baggins (I hope I got that right, I don't know tolkien very well) probably is.'

Koryon smiles at himself.

Koryon is now afk.

Ntanel leaves down.

Koryon is no longer afk.

You say 'I use that example cause UK and US so both KaVir and Mateo would be familiar'

Mateo says 'so what is Vagrant Koryon?'

Kyre says 'oh I was thinking Frodo was the guy in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, but that was Frollo wasnt it?'

Kyre snickers softly.

Koryon says 'hi! It's a codebase I'm working on myself, from the ground up (minus the addition of a very excellent combat system by KaVir here)'

KaVir says 'Would it be worth Orion having a disclaimer stating that by playing his mud, you agree to give a non-exclusive non-revokable license to use any material contributed within the mud?'

You say 'okay, I understand that -- but if you look at TSR for example, it says all character names are trademarked and yet they include Dragon as a character'

OrionElder says 'Actually, that would be good in ALL cases, as I know many players do make suggestions such as skills/skill names, etc.'

KaVir says 'It should also cover areas then'

Ebon smiles happily.

Mateo says 'sometimes companies claim trademark rights to everything...there is common law...signified with TM'

You say 'but is it valid Mateo?'

OrionElder says 'I think you could, however you couldn't take ownership from them. Only the right to use it how and when you see fit.'

Mateo says 'common law is valid'

Mateo says 'but'

Kyre says 'well guys the kid's whining so I'll be back soon as I can'

Kyre hugs you all in a big group hug.  How sweet!

KaVir says 'I thought TM was trademark which anyone can claim and R is registered?  Or am I way off?  I don't know trademark law that well'

Kyre kisses Apia.

Kyre has left the game.

Mateo says 'you have to prove you have acquired rights'

Mateo says 'no you are right kavir'

Mateo says 'well'

Mateo says 'what do you mean with TM'

Mateo says 'TM means someone is claiming ownership but hasnt registered the mark'

KaVir says 'Can you simply claim a trademark on something?'

KaVir nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'So I could claim "GodWars" as trademarked, without doing anything else?'

Mateo says 'you have to use it to have common law rights...use the mark in commerce'

OrionElder says 'Ah, like ACME(tm) would mean that Warner Brothers is claiming ownership, but feels no need to register it?'

Mateo says 'feels no need, is in the process, or knows they couldnt receive a registration but wants to claim ownership'

Ebon nods in agreement to OrionElder.

You are filled with an odd sense of peace and tranquility.

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Mateo says 'you can search online to see if its registered'

KaVir says 'So what's the advantage of registered?'

Mateo says 'but the test for trademark infringement is "liklihood to confuse consumers about an affiliation"'

You agree with him.

Mateo says 'the advantage is, you have a presumtion that your mark is valid AND'

OrionElder says 'So, essentially, I could use the names, and personalities, and essentially the "character" portrayed by my players?'

You say 'affiliation, endorsement or benefit gained'

Mateo says 'you have put the country on notice of your rights...and you can claim priority to another who may have used it in a common law sense as well'

Apia says 'offhand i would think names would be like titles and not be fall under copyright protection'

You say 'and usually monetary benefit gained'

Mateo nods in agreement to Apia.

OrionElder says 'Names don't, under copyright.'

Apia says 'but...if in the context of the mud they were part of a recognizable story that they come from then they would be'

Mateo says 'no copyright in a name alone'

Mateo nods in agreement to Apia.

KaVir says 'The story would be, the names wouldn't'

KaVir says 'People could still use the names of the characters'

OrionElder says 'But they could claim copyright of the name if it was tied to their character (meaning the personality, etc, right?)'
Mateo says 'the names would be an element in the infringement analysis'

KaVir says 'As long as they were different characters'

Apia says 'so...an isengaard zone with sauraman and ents and pippin andmerry...that would be a problem'

You agree with him.

Mateo says 'if the chrs and the names were the same it would make it that much easier to show an infringement'

OrionElder says 'This part is a bit confusing. ;)'

Apia says 'but a sauraman that just lives in a tower....not so much of a problem'

KaVir says 'But a zone which had Gandalf the singing frog, wouldn't come under copyright law'

KaVir says 'I mean it wouldn't infringe tolkien'

You say 'that becomes, to me, parody and not a copy aka plagiarism'

OrionElder says 'Ok, Mateo, what if I used the name, and the personality, however I exagerrated parts of it, as if to parody them. Would there be a problem there?'

Apia says 'i think even gandalf the magician wouldnt be too much of a problem'

Mateo says 'parody is a complex ananalysis'

KaVir says 'If you wrote a story about Gandalf the magician from the tolkien books, that would be a copyright infringement I think'

Apia says 'unless he was associated with other characters in a zone using descriptions obviously from tolkien'

Mateo says '-an'

OrionElder says 'What defines a parody?'

Dsark chats 'Oh good... I'm not too late to be back :}'

KaVir says 'Even if it was your story - but if you were using the existing character'


Apia says 'i think that would be alright woulndt it?'
Mateo says 'well look at some well know parodies'

Solarae says 'how about if you made an area, wanted to write a story or book on it, and wanted to include a player in your mud?'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

Solarae says 'would you need the players permission?'

You say 'comedians parody politicians all the time, they are not well protected by the laws because public images, but still, some borders on slander'

OrionElder says 'That's what I'm curious about. By them being there, can I use the character they portray in my MUD, or would I need to place a disclaimer?'

Apia says 'spaceballs for instance'

OrionElder nods solemnly.

OrionElder says 'Almost any of Mel Brook's movies.'

OrionElder says 'ALMOST.'

Mateo says 'well mud characters/players...there isnt always that much thats copyrightable there'

Mateo says 'weird al yankovitz'

Apia says 'i would imagine it is descriptions mostly...and plot lines'

Solarae nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'Their character descriptions could be'

Apia says 'that you would need to be careful of'

KaVir says 'If they logged their roleplaying experiences'

KaVir sits down and thinks deeply.

Solarae says 'with all of the work I am putting into developiong the world, I may write it as a story some day'

Mateo says 'each federal district defines parody differently...and its by a series of case s'

Apia says 'i cant imagine that pc names would be any problem at all'

OrionElder nods in agreement to Apia.

Apia says 'no matter what they were doing'

OrionElder says 'Those would have to be trademarked, I'd think.'

Mateo says 'soon i got to be eatin some dinner'

Apia nods solemnly.

OrionElder nods in agreement to Mateo.

Akasha chats 'nice meeting everyone goodbye! :)'

Akasha has left the game.

Kooky chats 'Cya'

Kristi chats 'laters:)'

Zaroth chats 'night Akasha :D'

You say 'the gist of my original question related to serious aversion to using excerpts or parody of existing texts in mud mob names and zone creation as a theme.  I see no problem as long as not verbatim from the book texts or stolen from a another mud.'

Angel chats 'Night Akasha :)'

KaVir says 'Soon I've got to be eating breakfast :P'

Mateo says 'if anyone has other questions we didnt get to...feel free to email me- matt@beckerlawfirm.com'

Apia nods in agreement with you.

OrionElder says 'Well, just to let you know, in case you have to go before I get back (need a drink). I, and I think we all do, really appreciate you taking the time to come here and speak with us. :)'

Ebon says 'thank you Mateo'

Apia says 'are you really a lawyer or do you just play one in cyberspace :-)'

OrionElder says 'Your information and advice has been much appreciated, at least on my part. :)'

Mateo says 'no prob '

You agree with him.

Apia shakes his head in Mateo's direction.

KaVir says 'Thanks, I may think up a few questions ;)'

Mateo says 'both apia'

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

Apia bows before Mateo.

OrionElder snickers softly.
Mateo bows deeply.

Apia says 'thanks..it was very interesting'

Mateo smiles happily.

OrionElder says 'I will be back in a few moments. :)'

OrionElder is now afk.

Mateo says 'yah ill have to do this again'

KaVir says 'Free legal advice?  Fun?  :P'

You say 'PhoenixMud tradition is hugs among immortals'

Mateo says 'sometimes i mud at eternitys trials'

Mateo hugs you.

Apia hugs Mateo.

You say 'teams'

Solarae smiles happily.

Mateo thanks you heartily.

Apia chuckles politely.

Mateo hugs Apia.

Mateo hugs a flea-infested grizzly bear.

You chuckle politely.

Apia says 'i am still getting used to it...even after five years'

Apia chuckles politely.

Apia hugs you.

Mateo seems to get a laugh from something saying, "heh heh heh".

Mateo waves happily.

Mateo waves happily.

Mateo bows deeply.

Mateo has left the game.

KaVir says 'Well that was fun :)'

You say 'sure was educational'

Ebon nods in agreement to KaVir.

Solarae nods solemnly.

KaVir says 'Interesting about the snooping, in particular'
Apia nods in agreement with you.

Solarae says 'Il have to go back to my logs to catch some of it again though'

Apia says 'i missed part of that on the snooping'

Apia says 'did you log it Ilu?'

KaVir says 'Could you hang on to those logs?  Perhaps post them somewhere?'

You say 'I still think the disclaimer and public access protects us but HE is the expert'

KaVir says 'I wish I had logged it'

KaVir says 'I don't think a disclaimer would hurt'

Apia says 'what did he say? he agreed with me didnt he :-)'

Apia pokes you in the ribs.

Angel chats 'Hello Sadiq :)'

Angel chats 'If you need your title set feel free to send Kristi or I a tell :)'

Samson chats 'Greetings Sadiq'

Kristi chats ':)'

Kyre has entered the game.

Nall chats 'yea that have no lives so its not a problem for them :)'

Sadiq chats 'Hello all....sorry I am late'

Angel chats 'no problem :)'

Kyre says hello to everyone in the room.

Koryon leaves in a swirling mist.

KaVir chats 'It's okay, we all waited for you before starting'

Ebon chats 'Hi Sadiq '

Zaroth chats 'good to see ya Sadiq =)'

Samson chats 'heh. You weren't the only one late :P'

Ntanel chats 'ya missed thoric by a little bit'

Sadiq chats 'Ahh...too bad'

You say 'I have the whole thing, it will take a minute to find and log transfer'

Ntanel chats 'so we saved you this naked pick of him he left, it is a stick drawing, but you still get an idea what you missed'
Ebon says 'are going to post it somewhere Iluvatar?'

OrionElder is no longer afk.

Sadiq chats 'Hehehe'

You say 'if I can clean it up and get the pertinent parts, yes'

OrionElder chats 'Heh, Sadiq. ;)'

OrionElder chats 'Running late? ;)'

Kristi chats 'heh'

Ebon says 'cool'

You say 'I can give to Ntanel to post on mudworld'

Ebon says 'that would be great'

Dace chats 'Hmm.'

Sadiq chats 'Heya Orion :)'

Dace chats 'Trippy.'

OrionElder chats 'Heh. :)'

You say 'my system ram is seriously packed, dunno if can save in time'

OrionElder snickers softly.

Dace chats 'As Sadiq logged on my music said the Latest and the Greatest.'

KaVir says 'Email it to me if you like, or someone else'

Dace chats '*boggles*'

Huh?

OrionElder chats '*laugh*&C'

Sadiq chats ':)'

You say 'hey, 262 meg ram'

You stick out your tongue at OrionElder.  How impressed he is with you now!

OrionElder says 'So, Mr. Becker left?'

Sadiq chats 'Okay.....what Do I need to do now...never been to one of these :)'

OrionElder chats ';) Talk, best thing. ;)'

Dace chats 'Have fun. :->'

OrionElder chats '*chuckle* ;)'

Sadiq chats 'Groovy :)'

OrionElder chuckles politely.

Feylind chats 'pick a good'

OrionElder says 'Gonna go talk with Sadiq. ;)'

OrionElder smiles happily.

Dace chats 'Kinda like a mudparty.'

OrionElder waves happily.

OrionElder says 'Had fun, all. :)'

OrionElder smiles happily.

Feylind chats 'er.. pick a ROOM'

OrionElder changes into water, and dissolves into the ground.

Ntanel chats 'opposed ot picking a nose'

Ebon leaves down.

KaVir says 'Iluvatar, did you manage to keep the log?'

Dace chats 'Yah, like Nat over there.'

Koryon chats 'or chewing on buttons'

Kristi chats 'heh'

Dace chats 'lol'

Kyre has left the game.

Sadiq chats 'I am humbled to be in the company of such august personages :)'

Ntanel chats 'ok, enough bum kissing, goto kavir or something'

Dace chats 'Heh, if yer smart, you'll run now.'

Solarae says 'I have one from shortly after I came in'

Sadiq chats ';)'

Dace chats 'hehe'